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Matthew Aper
Matthew Aper's picture
Raises, Damage, and Maneuvers
core rules, raise, dueling

I just have some rules clarification questions about using multiple raises and damage as it applies to characters who have and who don't have a sword  school. I am in a weekly game we are liking the new edition; but we want to make sure we are doing things right. None of the examples of play in the book show any character using more than one raise at a time.The following issues have come up; and while searching the net we have found conflicting answers. So I ask these:

1) Yes or No, A character making a non-dueling Maneuver attack can spend multiple raises to cause wounds on a 1 for 1 basis.

2) Can a swordsman, using the Slash Maneuver, spend additonal raises to cause additional wounds? If so, are these wounds purchased at 1 for 1 basis; or does the swordsman cause wounds = to wep rating per extra raise spent?

Thanks for the help,

Matt

 

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Joachim Deneuve...
Joachim Deneuve du Surlign's picture

1)  Yes

2)  No.  If you want to do extra damage with a Duelling Maneouver, use Lunge.

Cthulhu Netobvious
Cthulhu Netobvious's picture

@MatthewAper, if you want some extensive insights into how fans are handling "dueling" in 7th Sea 2e here is a list of threads.

 

TAJ-07: Technopriest And Justicar Of 7thSea2e

Donovan Morningfire
Donovan Morningfire's picture

My take.

1st Question's answer is Yes, and this is spelled out in the rules on page 180 of the corebook.  For a non-Duelist, sometimes their best course of action in an Action Sequence is to pour all their raises into dealing damage, especialy if it's something like a Brute Squad or you're pretty confident the Villain's not going to come after you.

2nd Question is trickier.  While the Slash Maneuver doesn't outright say you can spend additional Raises for more damage, page 179 allows the Hero (or Villain as case may be) to spend additional Raises on their Action.  So it'd ultimately be up to the GM, as there's pros and cons to "Yes, they can spend raises on a Slash for more damage" and "No, they can't spend raises on a Slash for more damage."  Generally speaking, it's not beneficial for a Duelist Hero to spend extra Raises on increasing the damage of a Slash, since they've got other things they can do with those Raises that are far more effective.  For instance, a Duelist with Weaponry 3 and 3 Raises vs. a Strength 8 Brute Squad could (in my view) use Slash and then spend those two additional Raises for a total of 5 damage, leaving them to take 3 damage when the Brute Squad gets to act.  But that's grossly inefficient, since she could instead spend the first Raise to Feint, second Raise to Slash, and last Raise to Bash, dealing 6 damage all together and reducing the Brute Squad's damage by 3, which ends up preventing the Duelist from taking any Wounds.

Lunge is an "go big or go home" tactic, which has both strengths (can't negate any of the damage) and weaknesses (you HAVE to spend ALL your remaining Raises to use it), and because some players are cheese-seeking power-gamers that treat Lunge as the "I Win!" button for fights, there are GMs that have a big problem with the Maneuver.  But that's a seperate kettle of fish to be boiled, and probably more to treating a "duel to first blood" as being no different than a typical Action Sequence, when upon further contemplation such duels are probably better handled as a Risk, since most Villains when confronted aren't going to settle for "first blood" against a Hero that's been vexing them.

Dono's Gaming & Etc Blog
http://jedimorningfire.blogspot.com/

Harliquinn Whit...
Harliquinn Whiteshadow's picture

The rule on Page 179 is specifically around spending multiple Raises on Actions that either require multiple Raises (Dealing 1 Damage / Raise, Avoiding 1 Damage / Raise) or benefit from Multiple Raises (I want to succeed MORE than the person I'm going against). It doesn't let you just do additional damage in conjunction with an Action that doesn't already have the "Spend more Raises" built in.

For instance, a Hero cannot spend a Raise to active a special ability as their Action and then send additional Raises on that Action to also do damage for some reason. As an example, a Sorcerer with Dar Matushki could not spend a Raise to activate the Transform Gift to shift into a bear and then spend additional Raises on the same Action to cause damage in an attack. The Damage would come as the next Action in the sequence.

The same goes for Maneuvers. Each Dueling Maneuver has a specific effect when you spend the Raise and no mention of spending additional Raises. So a Duelist can't use Bash, deal 1 Wound and get the effect and spend additional Raises for more Damage using that maneuver.

John

Donovan Morningfire
Donovan Morningfire's picture

In the case you cite (transforming into a bear and dealing damage on top of it), it's performfing two fundamentally different Actions.

Slash, and be extension the rest of the Duelist Maneuvers all build upon an existing Action (in this case, spending a Raise to deal Wounds) and improve upon it.

Of course, if you go the idea that because the Maneuvers don't explicitly say "you cannot spend additional Raises," then by that same logic, a Hero could use Matador's Flourish any time they liked, since that lacks the "have to use immediately following the Maneuver that inflicted Wounds" requirement that Parry and Riposte have.  Meaning that per your strict reading, a Torres Duelist could use her style bonus to negate a bunch of Wounds at any time during the Round they like.  Heck, it could even be spent pre-emptively before your opponent attacks, since again there's no wording in the style bonus for when it's meant to be used during the Round apart from the "once per Round" restriction that most style bonus Maneuvers have.

Dono's Gaming & Etc Blog
http://jedimorningfire.blogspot.com/

Salamanca
Salamanca's picture
The solution to all this may fall into a very overlooked bit in the description of the Action Sequence. Book is not in front of me so please correct me if am wrong. I recall some sort of passage that reads something like " a player may spend multiple raises to complete an action but they must do it all at once.". That then goes on to say something like " a player may not do the same action again in the sequence" If I remember right, that involved doing things like negating wounds from a single attack or spending to avoid a consequence or complete a contested challenge ( like grabbing a bag of gold). But, depending on how you interpret what is said, it could imply you may only make 1 basic attack on each target per sequence as well. So if we have a villain and a brute squad against a Duelist and a standard hero, the standard hero could attack the brute squad once and he villain once (and spend multiple raises in each attack or use them for other things). And the Duelist could attack each the same way, slash the villain, feint the villain, slash the brutes, and bounce through the rest of their abilities but only use each one once per target. This is another of those foggy writing spots in the book that is open to interpretation. And it very much changes how a Duelist and standard character approach a fight. (Essentially forcing the standard into a weak lunge option does not seem in spirit to the game in my view but neither does 1 poont pokes every action)
Harliquinn Whit...
Harliquinn Whiteshadow's picture

Donovon, as written I would agree that Matador's Flourish could be used at any time. If it's an error and should be limited to just after the maneuver for Wounds, that needs to be stated. While the game is certainly about "Rulings" and not "Rules", there need to be some rules stated if that is the intent, otherwise, each group can decide how they will play it. In any games I run, additional Raises cannot be spent on Slash unless there is an official clarification otherwise.

 

Salamanca, I at least was not suggesting that non-Duelists couldn't do multiple Wounds by spending multiple Raises. That is explicitly listed as the standard way to deal Wounds. Duelists can even use the standard 1 Raise = 1 Wound damage rule without using a maneuver. The rules you stated just ensure that for that Attack Action, you have to spend all the Raises you want to use for Wounds at once.

 

John

Salamanca
Salamanca's picture
Which is why I wonder about it. I hate the idea of running a fight where one or more players gets to attack once when others may be taking 3-5 attacks. If that player doesn't find other things to do during the combat, they get relegated to observing which is far less fun.
Harliquinn Whit...
Harliquinn Whiteshadow's picture

Honestly this was the main reason for my introduction of the "Dueling Light" to give non-duelists a chance to do more things and contribute. However, I think having things for everyone to do besides swinging a sword is also helpful (Dealing with environmental issues, dealing with brute squads, dealing with other people in the scene, etc.)

Sparky UK
Sparky UK's picture

Is Dueling Light a set of homebrew rules for your game? If so, could you share them please?

Thanks

"Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die..." ~ Inigo

Harliquinn Whit...
Harliquinn Whiteshadow's picture

They are posted somewhere on the house rules forum but in essence it is a 2-Point Advantage and when chosen by a non-Duelist you get to pick one of the basic Dueling Maneuvers and either Aim, Brawl, or Weaponry and you can use that maneuver with that skill replacing "Weaponry" once / round in an Action Sequence (Slightly different than a duelist who can use it as many times in a round but just not back to back)

Salamanca
Salamanca's picture
Well, there is having and what they want to do. My "I want to build a scholar" guy will forget his role ten minutes into play and think he's a combatant. And that is where this all comes apart. When players want to do things and the system says no.
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