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Monk R
Monk R's picture
[House Rules] 1E to 2E Sorcery Conversions
conversion, 1st edition, 2nd edition, house rules

(If this isn't the correct forum, feel free to move this.)

So for various reasons, I've attempted to convert El Fuego and Laerdom to second edition, and I'm looking for some feedback on what I've done.

 

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LibrariaNPC
LibrariaNPC's picture

I like the premise, but I have some concerns about your approach. I'm hoping to find some time soon to really dig into it (at work and I have my own homebrew on the docket), so I'll have to make this first response short.

With El Fuego Adentro:

  • Why are you giving so many ways to increase the Danger Pool? Between starting with a decent number (1 per hero) and gaining more through heroes not using all of their dice on rolls (why wouldn't the GM do this?), there's already a good pool to work with. 
  • If anything, your first paragraph (and a few other spots, like Firebird) make me think of Marvel Heroic Roleplaying, in which dice are added to the doom pool based on actions that cause collateral damage  and are removed to cause problems for the heroes.
  • I do like the idea of spending a Danger Point to make a negative effect kick in on the Major Shapings, but some of the Danger Point expenditures negate the ability itself (i.e. Firebird).
  • Some of the shapings seem a bit odd and overly complex, like the Flame Serpent (why not just assign it a Strength rating?), while others don't seem to have guidelines (like time limits for most Minor Shapings).

Laerdom is a much different kettle of fish.I've been looking at a hack for it myself, and while we are on similar pages (and you have already taken the rune effects into consideration), I think there's some necessary changes.

  • My first concern is in the Invoke portion. Invoke previously involved drawing the rune and calling on it's power. Taking that away almost makes it sound like we'll have a bunch of Nords using Dragon Shouts at each other. I'd personally try to bring that back, as it does add a minor restriction that is easy to get by (e.g. cutting oneself to use blood, carving into a wall, using burned wood as charcoal, etc).
  • Inscribe is a bit too powerful as-is, as you can technically spend a week crafting Runed Items and equip the entire party with damage-increasing effects. You may also want to take timelines into consideration, as the original version of the rules stated that runes only lasted about a year before having to be re-inscribed. This can be handled in a few ways.
    • Option A: Base it on number of times Sorcery was purchased. "You may have an Inscribed Rune for every time you've purchased the Sorcery Advantage." This keeps it from getting out of hand.
    • Option B: Give every Inscribed item a timeline. "Until the end of the story" is a good one. Setting Inscribed items for a session, or even a one-time use may also be a way to handle things. This way, a Vesten won't be claiming to have spent days making runes "in travel" between sessions or even stories.
    • Option C: If a character wishes to make permanent Inscribed Items, make them take the Master Craftsman advantage. Tie this with Option A and you'll have players that will think before randomly Inscribing items, but it also allows the character to (and gives an in-setting reason for) have items inscribed and handed off to others/family.
    • Option D: Mix the above. I personally like the idea of doing so, but that's just me.
  • You also don't have a note as to how the runes are learned. Does the character have all of them? I'd personally try to use the other sorceries as a guideline: you gain 3 runes each time Sorcery is acquired (this means that Sorcery must be acquired 8 times to fully master all of the runes).
    • Alternatively, you could set it as "Learn to Invoke 2 runes, and learn to Inscribe a rune you already know." This does mean that the character would need 12 Sorcery advantages to get them all. . .
  • Some of the runes had two options when purchased in the 1st Edition. For example, a number were tied to the emotions of people OR to the weather. Both are exceedingly useful, and  think omitting them typecasts the sorcerer a bit too much.

 

Just my initial impressions, of course. I hope they help!

"Smilies exist because no one's bothered to create a sarcasm font." --Lost_Heretic

Monk R
Monk R's picture

It's a first draft, so if definitely needs some work. That said.

El Fuego

- You basically have my goals right with the second point. This Sorcery is dangerous to use because despite magically controlling Fire...fire is still fire, and its volatile and hard to control. I'm not sure if I'm spiking the Danger Pool too hard, but I do want (at least for the Major Shapings) hooks for ways for things to spiral out of control.

- For Firebird, I was unsure about a good hook really. I was thinking about a possible way to leave an obvious trail in the sky...but invoking that hook basically just screams to the players "And you are going to be followed."

- Yeah, I guess I could just assign Strength 5 to the snake, and have it degrade 1 per turn.

- My thought was for the sequence essentially. Does that seem reasonable?



Laerdom

- I'm not sure having to draw it is any more of a big deal to accomplish 90% of the time. I can add it that you have to physically carve the rune or draw into onto something...but again, it would just be flavor that isn't actually an obstacle to its use most of the time. I'm fine adding a stronger requirement to Invoking, but drawing it is something that would likely just be glossed over anyway.

- Yeah, I was thinking about altering Inscribe. I think limiting the number of items you can maintain equal to your number of purchases in sorcery reasonable, and it's simple enough to remember.

- I say you have two runes per purchase in the How it Works section...though I'm definitely willing to alter that number. Runes cannot be improved in power, so 3 could also be a reasonable number of runes per purchase. That would take 6 Sorcery Advantages to get them all.

- I didn't want to make some runes more mechanics heavy than others. I can readd them to the weather effects (beyond the lightning bolt one, I think that's fine) if you don't think it would be overkill.

LibrariaNPC
LibrariaNPC's picture

I am glad to see that we are on similar pages and can be civil about this! Too many times I've worked with people on projects like this only to get vitriol. Hopefully we can remain so and make this awesome!

El Fuego

  • I agree that things could (and should) spiral out of control. Perhaps it could be "The GM may gain a Danger Point or create a fire-themed Consequence when you use a Major Shaping." This way, some of the shapings can cause rooms to burst into flame (which can lead to a number of potential shenanigans), all of the fire going out could cause a "Pitch Black" consequence that forces players to spend additional raises to not fall over, etc.
    Just an idea, of course. I just think, with this approach, the GM can determine which is more dramatic: the situation falling apart now, or a Danger Point to make things fall apart later. It also would make players think twice about using the power, as a large enough Danger Pool hurts everyone, and the idea of consequences would make anyone reconsider their actions.
  • See above for the Firebird thing, because that could resolve it.
  • Strength 5 with a reduction would be pretty good, in my opinion.

 

Laerdom

  • I do think drawing it in some way is a better nod, personally. Doesn't even have to be carved, just some way to make the mark. Remember that it's a combination of the symbol and the name that grant the power, so having the symbol being drawn for an Invoke ability is just as important as having it already carved into an object for the Inscribe ability. Just my opinion.
    It doesn't necessarily limit the ability from happening (unless you find yourself shackled hand and foot, but that'd stop a Porte mage as well, after all), but it does include a limitation to the power, which is helpful (as no power comes "free").
    • Side note: You don't list how long the effects last for Invoking or even Inscribing. You may want to expand on that, even if it's just in the description of each rune.
  • Glad we agree on a way to limit the number of Inscribed runes! I'd go with that, easily, as it is a nod to Porte (1 Major mark).
  • There are 24 runes here. If you give two runes per purchase of the Sorcery advantage, you will need to purchase the ability twelve times to master it. That's. . .pretty expensive. By changing it to three runes per purchase, a starting character with this as a background knows six runes (one more than a starting full-blood in the first edition, unless you were crazy and went seven runes at Rank 1), and will only need a total of eight purchases of the Sorcery Advantage (six if they have this as a background).
    I think that's pretty solid, considering a Strega needs about six or so purchases to master the current Tessere, and a Losejas needs seven to "master" their magic.
  • Well, it might make some runes "mechanics heavy," but if you stand by the original idea that one either masters the rune as a weather rune or as an emotion rune, it doesn't really make it too rule heavy. It's more like "You have to choose which ability you want to buy. Which one will you take?"

 

Again, just my opinions, feel free to take them as such. I'll try to find some time to look at the runes tonight if it is slow.

"Smilies exist because no one's bothered to create a sarcasm font." --Lost_Heretic

Monk R
Monk R's picture

I'm not driving, so it's going to be tough to get me angry.

El Fuego

- So basically this: One using a Major Shaping the GM may gain a Danger die, or immediately introduce a consequence related to the fire effect produced. And then just make that universal, and keep Minor Shapings the way they are. Basic Hero Point activation.

 

Laerdom

- Okay, but if it is drawn, it should be in a semi permenant manner. You can't trace a rune in the dirt, but you can paint it on a tree or something, or cut into into a wooden building.

- As for how long they last, I was thinking one seqence/ scene?

- Yeah, I'm going with 3 runes a purchase.

- This is feasible, though the emotional effects will be more narrative, which seems to fit things. Now, is it worth letting them rebuy the rune to get both effects? Or should it be you choose one of them, and that's what you are stuck with? I'm leaning towards the latter.

LibrariaNPC
LibrariaNPC's picture

You're right, we're not driving: we're sailing into territory that looks vaguely familiar but drastically different :-D

 

El Fuego:

  • I can agree with that. Always spend a Hero Point for any Shaping, but Major Shapings will either create a fire-based Consequence or adds a Danger Point to the pool. 
    • Just a thought, but do you want to remove the note about adding a second Danger Point? I think it may lead to some crunching players to want to save their own points, which may lead to a bit of a headache or bad feelings around the table.
    • Additional thought: Some of the major shapings just BEG to have their own consequences. Perhaps have a sample with each one?
  • When you can, add the timelines for these effects. Some of them are fit for a scene (Fireflies), while others can last much longer (Firebird).
  • Reading it again, I do have to ask: why the differences in flame levels between the Minor and Major shapings? If a hero has enough Hero Points, they can just use Feed to raise it to that level, so why bother with it? Sure, some of what you list as Major Shapings need larger flames, so perhaps list them on each? Maybe allow anything the size of a campfire or larger to be used, but it is exstinguished afterward?
    Example 1: Firebird would need a large flame like a bonfire, while Fireflies would need the size of a campfire at least.
    Example 2: Any fire the size of a campfire can be used, but that fire is immediately exstinguished to give life to the Shaping (which, of course, can cause more fire).
  • Let's talk about individual shapings, now:
    • Firebird: I'd suggest pulling a page from Porte and state that you may bring other characters along, but each one takes a Hero Point. I'd also note the distances (it was 50 miles per day per rank; maybe midline is at 150 miles a day?). I do like that it's more of a transport power than an attack power (as the original worked like your flame serpent).
    • Flame Serpent: I think noting that water can destroy the serpent may be a good thing to note, just in case someone has a way of making it suddenly rain (especially with your Laerdom hack).
    • Sweltering Heat and Cry of the Sun: I'm really not sure I like removing dice from the pool, as that reduces multiple potential raises and the ability to gain more Hero Points. I don't think we have anything that reduces dice yet, and it does start to promote a zero-sum game. Perhaps use what we already have in existence by forcing the characters to spend additional raises.
      • Cry of the Sun: The target is blinded and must spend an additional raise on their next action.
      • Sweltering Heat: Anyone in the same vicinity (same room or similar area) must spend an additional raise on every action spent until the effect wears off or they leave the area.
    • Devour Flame: I'm not sure what you mean by "To the last flesh wound." Do you mean the flesh would prior to the Dramatic Wound that is healed, or do you mean all Flesh Wounds?
    • Heart of the Inferno: I honestly can say I really don't like this. The character takes multiple dramatic wounds, everyone around them takes 1 dramatic wound, and all this for dealing 2 extra wounds? No sir, I don't like it.
      I know you don't want to scrap it to maintain balance, so you'll either want a different power or to make it worthwhile, such as dealing a dramatic wound per hit (which might make it TOO powerful, but not too bad considering the wound hit).
    • Exstinguish: I don't like it reducing the danger pool, honestly. Again, smacks of the mechanic in Marvel (which works there, not so much here), and it makes it too much of a "Hey, let's screw with each other!" I'd toss it and leave it with just the fire removal.
    • Feed: I like the idea of enhancing the flames, but I do miss the idea of being able to keep a flame alive without proper fuel (even if it takes wounds)
      • Granted, Shining Lantern kind of does this, but it's pretty limited.
    • Ignite Passion: This is pretty neat, but doesn't have a mechanical benefit. Perhaps imply that the character is automatically Pressured to act in accordance to their strongest emotion for the scene? This way, it's got a one up on standard pressure (as you need flame and it's a magical effect), and you still get the narration going.
    • Leap of the Firebird: I'm on the fence here. I like it, but it's a bit quirky and super-powery (and not entirely fitting with the rest of the powers). 
  • One thing I'm iffy about: this power automatically makes one immune to flames without any cost. Perhaps ditch Leap of the Firebird and replace it with "Flame Immunity"? Sure, it's a step away from the original, but it's a bit more balanced with everything else.

 

Laerdom

  • To quote directly from the first edition: "Most apprentices use paper and ink to invoke the words, although they could also be written in the sand, on wood or glass, or on any other surface." It's really just the act of drawing the symbol and speaking it to invoke the power. I'd stand by writing/drawing it on anything with anything you can, because anything more permanent gets into Inscribe territory.
  • I'm really torn for length of time. Most abilities from other sorceries are only there for a single action (Minor abilities in Glamour are one action), while others last much longer. 
    Just as something to try, perhaps 1 Roll/Round for the Invoke power, and one Scene was activating an Inscribe power? This way, it is comparable to both Knights of Avalon and Sorte, as most Minor powers often last for one round, and the Major can last for an entire scene?
    This also allows Inscribe to be a bit better than a Signature Weapon, but comes with an obvious cost (sorcery+days of work+limited number of runes)
  • Glad we can agree with 3 runes per purchase.
  • In the first edition, a sorcerer had to choose between Weather or Emotion, and could not choose both. I still like that standing, because it can show focus and also proves that not every sorcerer will be the same (as they can have a mix and match of their runes).
  • Now, for the runes themselves:
    • Bevelgese: Your wording here is odd. Do you mean "comprehend" as in the Empathy skill, or do you mean to understand a language? If it's the former, blatantly state it, but if it's the latter, we don't really have anything for that in this game, and it may be an unused rune.
    • Varsel: You should note that Kjot cancels this effect.
    • Stryke: I'm a bit worried about this one. A part of me thinks it's great, but depending on how long the rune lasts, it's pretty powerful. I mean, even if it only lasts for one Round, that is still one extra damage EVERY TIME you hit something. I did the math with a friend, and a killer combo of Duelist (Ambrogia), Fencer, and Legendary Trait (Finesse) gives a crunched character 1 Raise and 10 dice at the start of the game. This means this character deals no less than 2 damage per raise (bash/feint), and can deal up to 5 (Feint+Stryke+Weaponry 3) with a Slash. That's an automatic Dramatic wound against most enemies. Might be a bit overkill.
      As an alternative, perhaps use this as a bonus die to combat, and change Kreig to a re-roll of combat dice?
    • Stans: The current weather effect is fine. For an emotional effect, how does this sound:
      "Gain two dice when attempting to calm others." From a social standpoint, if your Vendel is trying to smooth over things at a ball, it's a great effect.
    • Storsaed: I think moving this closer to the Mad Luck or using the Blessing function from Sorte would be the better bet, but give a flat bonus instead of basing it off of ranks of lashes. Like "You may grant anyone nearby that can see and hear you 3 bonus dice. They may be used on any risk until the end of the scene, but are gone once used." It feels more accurate to the original, which inspires Greatness, not normal luck.
    • Host: This is just. . .odd. The original was based on granting XP for reducing the skill. Why not pull a page from Legendary Trait: "Choose a skill. Before rolling that skill, you/the target remove one die from the pool. It is automatically a 10. If your 10s would explode, then this also explodes."
      Alternatively, you could just grant the Exploding 10s option, as it is a harvest.
    • Kreig: As I mentioned under Stryke, change this to an option to re-roll dice used in a combat situation. Give it a base number, like 3, and watch as things change.
      Having a skill of 3 only grants a one die re-roll, and some other powers can gain up to 5 re-rolled dice, so 3 seems like an okay baseline. Alternative option would be to re-roll a number of dice equal to the combat skill used, but I'm not certain if that would work well.
    • Nod: The weather effect side is great. As for the emotional side, how about:
      "Gain two dice when attempting to incite another's wrath or anger."
    • Herje: Again, not too keen on the dice removal. Perhaps set it that the target is considered to be Pressured when taking action against the one targeted by the rune (i.e. if I target the Strega with it and someone shoots her, they must spend two raises).
      Also, why do they have to say a name afterward? I didn't see anything about that in the original material, so I'm a bit confused.
    • Reise: Why not just call this a Notice roll and leave it there? Notice takes care of Perception, after all, so. . .
    • Villskap: I'm not certain on this. A part of me wants to like it, but it touched on Sanderis a bit, only without the instant kill. There's also the note in the book about the Vendel ships having mastheads that can fire lightning, which just screams to be a Villskap rune.
      Personally, I'd change it to allow a one-time attack using a lightning bolt that appears from your hands/Inscribed weapon. Treat this like a firearm (1 automatic dramatic wound), and it should be good.
      It may need some way to have a "cooldown" afterward, though. Might need to implement a number of runes able to be used each round or scene. . .
  • Side note: have you considered finding a way to factor in the Become option? A part of me wants to set it up as a reward for a 5+ part story after all of the runes have been mastered, and allow a player to permanently gain the bonus of that rune without a Hero Point. Just a thought.

Sorry for the longer post, jus wanted to get all of the ideas out there before I (potentially) vanish for a few days.

"Smilies exist because no one's bothered to create a sarcasm font." --Lost_Heretic

Monk R
Monk R's picture

Mostly that only driving seems to make me angry <_<...so you are unlikely to do so. :P

 

El Fuego Interior (Name "Officially" Changed)

  • Yeah, that's reasonable. To activate either a Major or Minor, it costs a Hero Point. When activating a Major, the ST gets a Danger Die, or activates a Consequence based on the action.
  • Fireflies is a single action...but I will note them.
  • I will note the fire required too, and whether or not it devours the flame reducing it to nothing. Also...if EVERYTHING is on fire, nothing gets consumed, but it's not a good time for everyone.
  • Devour Flame - Flesh wounds prior to the last Dramatic Wound healed
  • Heart of the Inferno - Perhaps a better idea is to add fire to the Sorcerer and his allies hearts. Absorbing and using up all the fire in a scene gifts
  • Extinguish - Okay, switching it up to 1 HP to reduce a flame down one level, 2 HP to completely eliminate all fire.
  • Feed - Seems good, but that's a different sort of duration I think. Single Action to pump a fire up. Sequence to keeep it alive.
  • Ignite Passion - I really should have read those rules...good idea.
  • Leap of the Firebird - it is a bit silly, I'll remove it for now. If there's a replacement you can think of, I'll entertain it.
  • Immunity to Flame - Yeah, sorry, but I won't budge on this. It works for the themes I'm going for. The idea is that the sorcery can never really hurt the user. The tempetation is going overboard and hurting others. That's the Hero/Villain divide lies in my mind. A hero needs to worry about hurting others constantly. A villain may not give a damn once they have to start using their powers in full.

Laerdom

  • Drawing instead of calling then
  • Eh, there are actually a few Minor Lucks that do last for a Scene. But I think that's fine, and it's probably easier to say that each rune can only be used once per Scene. That goes for whether its Invoked or Inscribed. That's similar to how Glamours function.
  • Bevelgese - That's what I was going for (Empathy) I will clarify.
  • Stryke - Balance was one of things I was worried about, that seems reasonable.
  • Host - The choose a skill portion probably only matters for Inscribe, I'll note that.
  • Kyndighet - This feels much too weak for singular actions. I'm replacing it.
  • On Becoming - I was hestitant against doing this, mostly because no other Sorcery has a capstone. I don't think it's gamebreaking...but I feel I would almost have to add a capstone to the other sorceries as well.

Also, the sheet has been updated.

LibrariaNPC
LibrariaNPC's picture

Glad to know that I won't be making you angry here :-D

 

Thanks for updating the sheet. I'll be looking it over and creating a new comment on it soon. Not sure if that will happen today or another time this weekend (my wife is making a big deal of my birthday), but it'll happen soon. Until then, my responses to what you replied:

 

El Fuego

  • Glad we could agree on a mechanic for Major shapings. I have nothing further to add to that unless you want to make other changes.
  • Fireflies is one I'm on the fence about. A part of me loves it as a single action, but another part of me loves the idea of keeping that Consequence in place for the entire scene. Sure, it messes with your allies, but it also messes with your foes. I can also see it being a narrative weapon (i.e. After use, until dispersal, can use the Fireflies to make attacks). Just brainstorming.
  • Thanks for adding details on fire types. Makes things a bit more manageable.
  • The new Heart of the Inferno is rather interesting. I'm curious how it'll pan out.
  • Leap of the Firebird: If you still need another one, I'll see what I can come up with after looking at the Castille book I have on my shelf.
  • Immunity to Flame: That's fine, I'm just soundboarding ideas to keep things moving.

 

Laerdom

  • Glad to see we can agree that 
  • Having the runes able to be activated once per scene should be good, as long as the ability lasts for at least the round (or the Scene, in the case of Inscribed). It is something to test out, to be sure (as the original rules were based off of Wits or Resolve, if I remember correctly)
  • Thank you for clarifying Bevelgese and making my suggested changes to Stryke.
  • Host: The rune should still have an Invoke option, otherwise it just sits there. I'd let it work with either one, only the Invoke only lasts for an action while the Inscribe lasts for a scene.
    This way, Invoke works similarly to Legendary Trait (and while it requires a Hero Point, it can be given to anyone) for one round, while Inscribe works for the whole scene. I think that's pretty impressive considering you can just give them out.
  • Kyndighet: I don't remember what the original was offhand now. I'm not sure if this version is much better, though, especially since you are limiting it to Inscribe.You might want to work on the wording (as I can't tell if the "your skill rating" is the sorcerer or the person targeted). It's also a bit lackluster, as it means the die's highest result is going to be a 5 (and that's only if that skill is purchased). Not horrible, but doesn't scream great. Perhaps leave it as a flat number (even 5 would work if it works across the board for any skill announced), or roll a die and add that number to all skill rolls (Mad Luck?) for the duration?
  • Becoming: I think this is something to save for later when we see what happens when other sorceries reach their master levels (like the Losejas and the 7th Bargain, or a Hexe mastering all of the ungents). I just wanted it to at least be on the table, just in case.

 

More to come later on when I can look at the whole thing again.

"Smilies exist because no one's bothered to create a sarcasm font." --Lost_Heretic

Monk R
Monk R's picture

El Fuego

  • I'd like a replacement for leap, but I think this Sorcery is decent beyond that for now.

Laerdom

  • Host - The Invoke option is the same. Just Incribe is tied to one skill, and Invoke isn't.
  • Kyndighet - It was originally "+1 Die to a single skill of your choice", which was fine for a full schene activation, and maybe even an inscribed one. But for a single activation that's no better than 1 hero die. Keeping it just 5 is probably fine.
  • Yeah, I'll leave Becoming for later, to see if the other sorceries will be expanded or not.
LibrariaNPC
LibrariaNPC's picture

El Fuego

  • I agree that it's good and solid as is. While getting a replacement for leap is nice, it isn't vital (and there's plenty of room to expand powers later). I'm up for soundboarding more ideas as they come up, but for now, I think we're good.

 

Laerdom:

  • I'm being nitpicky here, but I don't necessarily agree with your first paragraph of only being able to activate a rune once per scene. It negates the perk of having a rune inscribed (like a necklace with Kjot) for an ally to use at court, and then needing the rune yourself at that same court session. I think it should be noted that you can only Invoke a rune once each scene, and Inscribed runes can only be activated once per Scene.
  • Again, nitpicky, but you have "run" instead of "rune" under Inscribe. There's other minor typos here and there, but that one made me twitch.
  • Host: Right now, you are only talking about Inscribe. Perhaps you should have "Choose a Skill when Invoking or Inscribing this Rune. While the rune is active, remove one die from your pool when rolling this skill and replace it with a 10. If your 10's would explode for any reason, this would also explode."
    Just semantics, really, but it does make a difference.
  • Kyndighet: See the same note as Host for the beginning portion of the writeup. I think giving flat option of "Treat two dice that rolled below a 5 as 5" should work. Sure, it's not as good as Host (Which gives an auto 10), but when you are working on getting that 15 for two Raises, they might come in handy.
  • Storsead: As written, it's just like handing a die to an ally. The only perk is having it Inscribed and having the effect last for the entire scene. Not sure if it works as is right now.
  • Becoming: I agree we'll wait this one out. Still would love to see it be a thing, so I'll gladly brainstorm with you when the time comes.

"Smilies exist because no one's bothered to create a sarcasm font." --Lost_Heretic

Monk R
Monk R's picture

Laerdom

- Each person can invoke each rune once per scene, so so a person activating an inscribed rune does not prevent you from activating it. So yeah, that's basically what I was going for.

- Typo fixed

- Quite, clarified

- Clarified again

- Storsæd - Yeah...the changes overall kind of made this useless. Ultimately, what it needs to do is give the user a way to support another. Maybe feed someone else your raises? Something like that?

LibrariaNPC
LibrariaNPC's picture

Laerdom

  • On each person can invoke each rune once per scene: Just to be clear, let's say I've inscribed Villskap onto a bracer. If I activate the Inscribed rune on one Raise, could I then Invoke it on the next? 
    Just curious, because I think it would make sense that a character who carved a rune for a later use can still use the Invoked and Inscribed benefits, even if they don't stack (i.e. you can't benefit from 2 Sinne runes at the same time).
  • Villskap: Speaking of Villskap: when you say it takes 5 raises to "reload," are these raises spent on that, or must five of your raises be spent before using it again? If it's the former, that's pretty useless because it takes a Hero Point to activate, and you can get the same benefit from a gun. If it's the latter, then what's stopping someone from making an attack, spending 5 raises on said attack, then using it again?
    Perhaps change it to "The character must wait until they have taken at least 5 actions before using the Inscribed rune again."?
  • Storsaed: This is tough. I realized my earlier suggestion was to give flat dice, and I forgot that's the default ability of using Hero Points for someone else, and for that I apologize.
    I'm trying to think of a flat bonus that would work. Perhaps a +1 (+2?) on every die rolled? Great for those Two Raises at 15.
    Perhaps emulating the higher-skill rank abilities, like offering exploding 10s no matter the skill? Sure, it doesn't help those that are already great, but it is inspiring greatness in others.
    Maybe the skill is considered to be +2 higher? Sure, it's a hair weaker than just handing over a Hero Point, but you are giving the perks of that higher skill level (re-roll, 2 Raises at 15, exploding 10s, etc). Again, not useful for someone at Rank 5, but still great for others (and for a scene-long inscribe, not bad).

"Smilies exist because no one's bothered to create a sarcasm font." --Lost_Heretic

Monk R
Monk R's picture

- Well...I suppose you technically could, but given they don't stack, it's pointless.

- I wanted some sort of cooldown to make it slightly better than a gun. Perhaps that it just hits and causes a dramatic wound?

- Making the skill considered 2 higher is probably good.

 

LibrariaNPC
LibrariaNPC's picture
  • Some runes can target others, so the idea of using an Inscribed on myself and use Invoke to aid another is what I'm looking at here. Or, in the case of Villskap: fire off a lightning bolt from an Inscription, then fire another from an Invoke.
  • It is tough to determine this one. A part of me wants to say that it can only be Invoked once per Scene, but then it feels like Inscribe gets the shaft as it's used once and done (but can be used by anyone).
    The best I have is have a "cooldown" via the number of actions, a "cooldown" via a number of Rounds, or limit it to once per Scene. A part of me is leaning towards the Rounds; perhaps 4 rounds? (Note: a top-notch marksman will take an entire round to reload on an average roll; a starting character will MAYBE reload in 2-3 rounds, on average. At BEST, with a bit of a number crunch, you'll take an entire round to re-load a gun.Trying to find a balancing point with magic)
  • The +2 to skill might be worth trying, in my opinion. Not sure if we want to make a bonus for having a Rank 7 skill or not, though.

"Smilies exist because no one's bothered to create a sarcasm font." --Lost_Heretic

Guy Reisman
Guy Reisman's picture

I am tremendously in favor of what you did with El Fuego Adentro thematically. It's something I've been planning to do myself once I got around to converting the system - fire as a metaphor. Shaping physical flames, but also inflaming the passions, igniting love, seeing the future in fire, walking through fire, using fire to heal, giving people ideas (the flames of inspiration), etc.

Alfredo Tarancón
Alfredo Tarancón's picture

If you''re adapting it, take that oportunnity to correct the name as well... El Fuego Adentro should be called Fuego Interior...laugh

Monk R
Monk R's picture

I'm willing to do it...mostly because I don't trust my own spanish anyway.

Joachim Deneuve...
Joachim Deneuve du Surlign's picture

I've just noticed something that I hadn't realised before: Lærdom may be around anyway.

In the Vesten Raiders section of the Pirates and Privateers topic is this sentence

"Hysterical stories have begun to circulate about ships with rune-covered figureheads that can spit lightning and battle-maddened Raiders wearing horned helmets, shrugging off blows that should have killed them."

That to me sounds like an inscribed Vilskap and various other runes could be invoked to survive damage.

LibrariaNPC
LibrariaNPC's picture

I actually commented on that in the early release as a note that it is a form of Laerdom, and asked if we are seeing Laerdom back or if this was accidentally left in their copy and paste of the Vesten/Vendel section of the 1st Edition books. Never got a reply on it, though.

"Smilies exist because no one's bothered to create a sarcasm font." --Lost_Heretic

Mars University
Mars University's picture

It definitely seems to hint at Laerdom coming back, but my guess is they wanted to save that for a supplement? My guess about the "battle-madened Raiders" statement is that it was referring to bearsarks (as shown in the Vesten Background of the same name).

If you wanted a runic item effect in 2E, you could use the Signature Item Advantage. It occurs to me that you could just use Laerdom runes as flavor for some of the other Advantages - the bearsark's Hard to Kill coming from runes worn or tattooed on, for example. The figurehead they describe could just be a modified version of Signature Item for the ship itself, given as a unique Adventure reward: any Hero Crew could spend a Hero Point once per Round or Scene to have the ship appear where needed when lost, gain two Bonus Dice on a relvant Risk (like Sailing if it helps control winds, or Intimidation if it spews lightning), or the Wound effects as normal (or against enemy Crew) or converted to Hits (only against enemy Ships).

 

LibrariaNPC
LibrariaNPC's picture

I agree that having a runic item could be summed up with Signature Item (and other effects can be summed up with advantages), but I think Monk's original goal (and I know this was mine) was to create a means of allowing temporary perks and bonuses as a form of sorcery that still matches original Laerdom.

In my humble opinion, I think it's a good idea to bring back Laerdom. This way, we can allow for effects that the current rules do not support (as some of the rune effects don't entirely translate into Advantages), as well as given the Vesten/Vendel something besides the ability to get a Yes/No answer, temporary give Reputation boosts, and people not able to hide their name. Interesting stuff, but not entirely sure if it's worth 4 points when a Losejas gets a similar effect for two points.

"Smilies exist because no one's bothered to create a sarcasm font." --Lost_Heretic

Mars University
Mars University's picture

Oh, I'm in agreement that I want to see something along the lines of the original sorcery return, I was just throwing out some potential, previously-existing ways to model certain effects within the existing ruleset, or to use for guidelines with designing the sorcery.

The Seidr Advantage is a fun alternative (for now), especially with the ability to permanently change Reputations for characters, but I'm really interested to see Laerdom work within the new mechanics.

Monk R
Monk R's picture

I have no problem with the Seidr advantage in a vacuum...I just figured it'd be more fun with the sorcery.

Though I mostly did this because I wanted Alchemist to be a non-Castille Specific advantage...and I figured I'd have to give them something in return. I'm not sure if I'll do any other Sorceries at this point (Eisen already has a new one, and I'm not familiar with the others).

After this may be trying to come up with new Duelist...or "Duelist" ideas.

Adam Canning
Adam Canning's picture
Do we need a 2nd ed El Fuego? Fire Deal Sanderis is a drop in replacement (right down to being able to fake being the Third Prophet) the same as one or two of the Mother's Gifts replaces Pyrem and Darkness Deal is pretty much Nacht. Yes, the Sanderis deals are more explicitly morally unsound and game mechanically costly than the Sorceries were in 1st edition but that's true for Sorte and Porte as well.
LibrariaNPC
LibrariaNPC's picture

I think part of this is for those fans who love the mechanics of 2nd Edition but want the setting of 1st Edition. I know quite a few people that are taking the best of both editions for their own tables; for example, one guy I used to game with loves the setting of 1st Edition and loves to plots he was working on, but he is loving how easy the rules are for 2nd Edition. End result? The desire to convert 1st Edition elements into 2nd Edition mechanics.

Others, myself included, loved certain elements of the 1st Edition and were upset to see them gone. While I'm indifferent about El Fuego (wasn't a huge fan of it in practice, but loved the theory), I respect these sorts of projects (thus why I offered input to finish them).

"Smilies exist because no one's bothered to create a sarcasm font." --Lost_Heretic