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Luis Olmeda
Luis Olmeda's picture
Duelist styles
duelist

Hi everyone!

I have a couple of doubts about the duelist styles:

1- A Style Maneuver can only be used once in a round, or it follows the standard rules for dueling maneuvers (unless its specific rule says another thing, of course)?

2- In the Sabat Style, it says that your Lunge is replaced by the Sabat Gambit. Sabat Gambit deals a number of Wounds equal to your Ranks in Weaponry + your Finesse + the number of Raises you spend. So, if the style replaces Lunge, does it means that I´ve to expend all of my remaining raises if I take that maneuver, and the wounds can´t be parried or prevented? Can I use Sabat Style multiple times in a round, or just once?

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Joachim Deneuve...
Joachim Deneuve du Surlign's picture

1 - I'm relatively confident on this: Style maneouvers can be used as many times as you want a round, unless specified otherwise.  Aldana says that it can only be used once per round, Mireli doesn't.

2 - I'm not so sure of this.  the Sabat Gambit maneouver replaces Lunge, it doesn't modify it.  Which means you no longer have the Lunge maneouver, just the Sabat Gambit one.  Sabat Gambit does not say that you must use all of your remaining raises or that your wounds are unpreventable.

Donovan Morningfire
Donovan Morningfire's picture

#1) Unless the Style Bonus Maneuver says otherwise, you can use it as often as you like.  Aldana Ruse, Leegstra's Crash, and Matador's Flourish all cite the "once per round," while Mirelli's Revision doesn't so you can use that as often as you like, provided you don't use it twice in a row.  Pretty sure Valroux's style bonus is lacking the "once per round" language, so that's another one you could use multiple times per round, again provided you don't try to use it twice in a row as per the default rules for Duelist Maneuvers.

#2) Sabat Gambit is a modification of Lunge, and apart from the extra bit of damage follows all the same rules as Lunge, including having to spend ALL your remaining Raises when you use it.  Iron Reply for Eisenfaust does the same with Riposte, as does Donovan's Bulwark with Parry.  This was clarified by Mike Curry over on Reddit a while back.

Dono's Gaming & Etc Blog
http://jedimorningfire.blogspot.com/

Luis Olmeda
Luis Olmeda's picture

So Donovan, If Sabat Gambit follows the same rules as Lunge, the damage done by Sabat Gambit can´t be prevented, am I right?

That style is kind of Super-Lunge...

Donovan Morningfire
Donovan Morningfire's picture

You'd be correct in that Sabat Gambit is a "Super Lunge."

However, trade-offs compared to the regular Lunge is that Sabat Gambit requires that you 1) be using a heavy weapon and 2) be using it one hand.  That means a couple of things, one that you don't get the benefit of Advantages like Bruiser (gain bonus die to Weaponry Risks using a heavy weapon in both hands) or Fencer (gain a bonus die to Weaponry Risks using a fencing weapon in one hand).  And sometimes that extra die can mean the difference between one more Raise or a couple of unspent dice that the GM is under no obligation to purchase; in a duel that extra Raise can make all the difference.

It also means that if you are deprived of a heavy weapon, you don't get to use the style bonus, and depending on which Nation your Hero is currently in, there may be a substantial lack of one-handed heavy weapons should they be denied the one they generally carry with them.

Plus, there are Duelist style bonus manuevers that can shut down Sabat Gambit (as well as Lunge, and apart from Bash hampering your damage output).  If you opened with anything other than Sabat Gambit, a foe with Donovan's Bulwark can simply opt to trigger their style bonus and nullify the rest of your Raises.  There's a Duelist style in Nations of Theah Volume 1 (De Vore) that out and out prevents damage done to the duelist or a target of their choice, and spells out that it works against Lunge and even the automatic Dramatic Wound from firearms.

Edit: Also worth noting that in all cases where a Duelist style says its special Maneuver replaces an existing Maneuver, it literally means "replace" as in "you no longer have access to the basic version of that Maneuver."  I've seen a few folks operate under the incorrect assumption that styles like Eisenfaust and Sabat means that you get both the style bonus Maneuver as well as the basic Riposte or Lunge (respectively).

Dono's Gaming & Etc Blog
http://jedimorningfire.blogspot.com/

Harliquinn Whit...
Harliquinn Whiteshadow's picture

#2) I believe this is an incorrect interpretation of the rules as written. Sabat Gambit says that is replaces Lunge, which means the character no longer has Lunge but isntead has the style maneuver. The Style Maneuver's mechanics stand alone and are self-contained; they are not 'merged' with Lunge. Therefore, the Sabat Gambit does not require you spend all your raises and the Wounds from Sabat may be blocked or prevented. This is true of any of the maneuvers that "Replace" another maneuver. 

NeoTanuki
NeoTanuki's picture

I had to search for a bit, but here's a link to the Reddit conversation where Michael Curry said Sabat Gambit does follow the rules for Lunge:

https://www.reddit.com/r/7thSea/comments/591mqe/questions_pertaining_to_...

 

Harliquinn Whit...
Harliquinn Whiteshadow's picture

Interesting. They really need to clean up the wording with errata then. If you 'replace' something, that's not the same as 'modifying' it.

Bonhumm
Bonhumm's picture

Since we are speaking about duelist:

 

I just re-read the 2nd edition about the duelist guild and it seems a LOT more stringent than in 1st edition.

 

Page 234 seems to imply that one MUST have attended AND graduated from an Academy to be a member of the Guild. So someone who learned a Duelist style (for example) on the road from a fellow adventurer could not be a member of the Guild?

 

1st edition was pretty much: Anyone you wants to join can, you don't even need to know a combat school or even own a sword.

 

What's you take on that oh wise ones?

 

NeoTanuki
NeoTanuki's picture

This is just my opinion, not official, but how I would personally handle it as a GM:

If someone was taught one of the official Academy styles informally as you describe, I would give the option of testing by resident Duelists at their local Guild chapter to see if their training qualifies them to be accepted for Guild membership. For example, let's say someone is taught Ambrogia during their travels by a mysterious wanding Vodacce tinker. The player would visit the local Guild chapter, and duel against 1-3 qualified Guild members trained in Ambrogia. If they can show appropriate expertise in an authorized style and can demonstrate knowledge of the dueling code, I think it's reasonable for the Guild to admit them to membership.

BluSponge
BluSponge's picture

What's you take on that oh wise ones?

Sounds like great fodder for an adventure to me!  

You fight a duel against the evil duke in the name of the maid he's been terrorizing.  But word gets out that you aren't a member of the Guild, that you aren't even a certified Duelist.  Now your reputation is on the line, the Duelist Guild is pissed, and the duel you fought is null and void.  What do you do next?

Bonhumm
Bonhumm's picture

Ok, so your take is also that the Guild is now 'Academy only'. Just wanted to see if I missed more permissive rules from elsewhere in the book.

 

BONUS QUESTION:

Then, what about people who do NOT have a duelist style (e.g. din't buy the advantage). What does happen when they fight with a sword? I'm not talking about duel, just about a fight.

 

Let's say a 'civilian' who still have 3 points in weaponry attack someone with a sword. How much damage does he do?

If you tell me 3 wounds, then that's the exact same thing as using the Slash maneuver so....

 

EDIT:

 

OK nevermind, I'm a moron: 

Causing another character Wounds is a Risk. You
declare your Approach, gather dice, and make Raises.
Spend 1 Raise to cause your opponent 1 Wound.
You may spend additional Raises to cause additional
Wounds: 1 Wound per Raise.

 

But then: Does it mean I need to spend a Raise just to do the action 'I've attacked him' THEN 1 Raise per damage OR does the action itself of attacking creates 1 wound and THEN any additional Raise add to this 1 wound?
 

In other words: If I spend a total of 2 Raises INCLUDING the action; do I make 1 or 2 wound(s)?

Harliquinn Whit...
Harliquinn Whiteshadow's picture

The Action is to "Wound" not Attack, so however many Raises you spend is how many Wounds you do. You don't need a Raise to Attack then X Raises to deal Wounds.

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