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Guy Reisman
Guy Reisman's picture
Glamour Sorcery (Nations of Theah)
glamour, sorcery, nations of theah, Avalon, Knights

So I've been reading through Nations of Theah, and it seems to me like I've either completely misunderstood something regarding Glamour sorcery, or something hasn't been made quite clear in the book itself:

Is Glamour sorcery actually a separete thing from being a Knight of Avalon? Signs seem to be pointing to an intended "yes" since it's listed as a different thing and the Sidhe Squire character Background specifically recieves "Sorcery: Glamour" as an Advantage (not Knighthood of Avalon) - but on the other hand, reading through the mechanics it seems to already require you to have some Glamours from Knighthood of Avalon to even use it (since it revolves around the ability to use Glamours at a higher level than you already own). True, you could temporarily get Glamours by cashing in Sidhe Debt, but it seems strange to me for an entire character "type" like that to revolve around such an unreliable mechanic. It certainly doesn't seem to fit with 7th Sea 2nd edition's general mindset of empowering the Heroes at all times. None of the other types of sorcery depend so heavily on out of character connections like that - if the GM wants to set the game outside of Avalon someone with that kind of sorcery would be all kinds of screwed.

I have to admit, I never really liked Knighthood of Avalon in the first place. It struck me as rather uninspired, I don't like the idea of their ever only being 20 sorcerers in Avalon at a time, and I miss the old fairy magic & illusions theme of the old Glamour. I was a tad bit disappointed to find out Nations of Theah didn't expand on it. But the setting is so much better in so many other ways, I suppose it's a fair trade nevertheless. I do wish to understand how the system works, though.

So what is it? Is "Glamour Sorcery" even a thing, or did someone just forget to specifiy the pretty important detail that it's just a subsystem for Knights of Avalon?

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Harliquinn Whit...
Harliquinn Whiteshadow's picture

As written, Glamour Sorcery was replaced with the Knights of Avalon Sorcery.

NeoTanuki's picture

There is a brief reference (I think it's in the core book) that "not all the Knights are loyal to Elaine." Which to me would suggest that "Knight of Avalon" is simply the name of the sorcery as opposed to a formal group like in 1e but no further details are provided.

Mike Curry is doing a Q&A on Reddit right now, and I asked if he might be willing to talk about the design team's intentions with the whole "There are only 20 Knights/Glamour Mages in all of Avalon" concept. 

Guy Reisman
Guy Reisman's picture

While at it, could you ask him what about Glamour Sorcery and whether it's a separete thing that exists, as appears to be crypically implied by Nations of Theah?

NeoTanuki's picture

I asked if there are any plans to expand beyond Knights of Avalon with Inismore or Highlands-specific magic. If I hear anything, I will share here. :)

Cthulhu Netobvious
Cthulhu Netobvious's picture


by NeoTanuki
C) The restriction of 20 Knights was made to make them feel really cool and unique, and to give them more of a sense of legacy. "I am THIS KNIGHT." We didn't want hundreds of Knights of the Graal running around because that would take away their cool factor. As for specific magics from Inismore or the Marches, nothing is specifically planned but that also doesn't mean it won't happen.


[–]robjustice(Rob Justice)

C) I'll chime in on this too, as I'm the writer behind the Knights of Avalon. First, Mike's completely right. One of the struggles we had with the old Glamour system was how un-empowering it felt. You tapped into someone else's legend and used their gifts. It felt very passive. My pitch was instead of using another's legend, you became the legend. Your character got to forge next generation of legend.

There is a funny thing I've noticed, one I didn't foresee, the assumption that these are the ONLY Knights. In fact, I wrote a line to suggest there are more: "The Sidhe have always claimed that these twenty were not the first to be Glamoured, but these Knights are the most famous Avalonians to wield the Sidhe magic." This was intentionally added as a note to the reader, "There are more mantles out there, Make Moar Knights!" Perhaps I, incorrectly, assumed the system for designing Knights are fairly transparent.

The other question I've seen, not one you've brought up directly, is how the Knights are only for Avalon. I wrote two parts to contradict this idea: "While King Elilodd’s Knights were loyal to him, not all of the new generation has bent their knee to the Queen. This fact has turned into quite the courtly scandal, and tension is quickly rising between the Avalonian Knights and Inish or Marcher Knights."

Then there is the Knight Dunstan: "Dunstan is often mentioned by Inish or Marcher Knights seeking to prove that not all Knights need to be Avalonian. Hailing from “a land where the sun never sets and the ground is of fire,” Dunstan had dark skin and hair that set him apart...yet none of the other Knights ever treated him as less than a brother."

This was my way to signal that not all the Knights are truly Avalonian. I mean, I specifically mention Inish and Marcher Knights and suggest that even a man from Ifri could be a Knight.

Mike pointed out that there are no current plants for magic specific to Inismore or the Marches but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Inish or Marcher Knights. In fact, had I been hired to write for Nations of Theah, I wanted to expand the Knights with other mantles reflecting Inish and Marcher stories. Alas, I never had the opportunity to flesh the idea out. Maybe I'll do it on my own time for the Explorer's Society...

TAJ-07: Technopriest And Justicar Of 7thSea2e

NeoTanuki's picture

Cthulu Netobvious beat me to posting the responses to my questions. :) 

A few things that surprised me from Rob's response:

1. I'm disappointed that Rob's suggestion to expand more Inish and Marcher Knight Mantles in Vol. 1 wasn't taken up by the writers of the book. It seems like a logical expansion of the core rules. I would certainly have liked to see this.

2. I didn't realize it was the designer's intent for players to make their own custom knights. I don't that was clear from the Knights of Avalon rules, but I certainly think it would be very helpful if published as an Explorer's Society supplement. Maybe the basic "Create Your Own Knight" rules and 2-3 sample Knight archetypes.

Antti Kautiainen
Antti Kautiainen's picture

This part of others glamoured indicates there might be f. ex. glaoured bandits carrying mantles on the forest of ...

I would say these 20 are only glamored knights, but others are glamoured warriors, glamored bards, glamored bandits :D

BluSponge blusp...
BluSponge blusponge@verizon.net's picture

That reference is probably there for Highlanders and Inish who want to have Glamour magic but don't like the idea of being tied to Elaine.

Joachim Deneuve...
Joachim Deneuve du Surlign's picture

You know what, I feel like there's space for an Explorer's Society expansion of Glamour for the Highlands or Inismore.

Quintan Quigley
Quintan Quigley's picture

What are the differences between the Glamour (Legendary) and the core book?

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