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Mark Lundequist
Mark Lundequist's picture
1st Ed Skills/Actions in 2nd Ed missing
skills

I am not going through the entire skill list and the knacks, but how would I run the following skills in this new system due to the simplified shortened list of the skills currently presented?

1. Etiquette in the King Court?
2. Land Management? 
3. Appraising or even creating artisitic objects?  Forgeries?
4. Crafting objects?
5. Gambling and Cheating?  This is a necessity in any RPG from my experience. After all almost every game I have played has had a Tavern/Saloon/Cantina/Starport.
 

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DaWaterRat
DaWaterRat's picture

In each case, you need to take into consideration what the character's objective is for the scene, rather than what skill is needed for the specific action:

1) Are they in court to petition the king? Convince/Tempt. Are they there to case the location for a later heist? Perform, maybe Theft (and possibly an extra consequence if they don't have the Aristocrat Background)
2) Is this just a check to see if they're doing okay? No skill roll required in my opinion. If the story involves actively improving/expanding/repairing them, then Scholarship strikes me as the most appropriate, but Convince and Intimidate, and even Warfare probably could be used, depending.
3) appraising would be Scholarship. Forgeries and creating... the lack of an official "craft" skill has been noted in other threads. I could actually see an argument for Convince here.
4) As I said, lack of Crafting has been noted. I'd go with a skill appropriate to whatever you're trying to make.
5) Gambling and Cheating is Tempt/Convince/Theft/Hide depending on the specifics. Intimidate too, if you're planning on mostly bluffing.

Alfredo Tarancón
Alfredo Tarancón's picture

First... it's a Risk? Rolling should be something that you do in cases of real danger...So, depending on the intent of the action, maybe you don't need a roll for some of this things... I think that the intent behind the action is really more relevant that the proccess of the action per se... how you approach the action defines what to use...

1. Etiquette in the King Court?
Perform... or Convince... depending on what i'm trying to do... And I would totally use DS...

2. Land Management? 
Scholarship.... but again... where is the risk in land management?

3. Appraising or even creating artisitic objects?  Forgeries?
I would use Perform for the first, Thief for the later...

4. Crafting objects?
Depending on the object and the intent of such object... Weaponry for weapons, perform for musical instruments... Hide for masks? 

5. Gambling and Cheating?  This is a necessity in any RPG from my experience. After all almost every game I have played has had a Tavern/Saloon/Cantina/Starport.
In my opinion, this falls into Thief... but depending on how you describe your action I could totally see the players using Empathy, or perform... or Intimidate...

 

Joachim Deneuve...
Joachim Deneuve du Surlign's picture

I actually had a land management risk in my last campaign :)

The PCs were trying to get Posen to not invade, by pointing out that a peacetime economy was more efficient.  Her response: "You are now wardens of my east march: Prove it."

Salamanca
Salamanca's picture
The nice part is you can switch it up so there is less maxing out a single skill. Make the players think about how they are doing things to gain that extra die for flair.
BluSponge
BluSponge's picture

I will not be surprised if we see some development in many of these areas, particularly courtly intrigue ala Montaigne.  Maybe not the big minigame that was in the 1st edition Montainge book, but someone will cook up something.

But yeah, the Risk/Consequence/Opportunities mechanic already covers a lot of this ground.  Some things just aren't a risk.

Now, one thing my players stumbled on last night is there really isn't a way for a character to get grades of success in a non-risk.  That is, if something isn't a Risk, I don't roll and therefore can't devote multiple raises towards it to be even more awesome.  I'm not sure that's really a flaw, but some unofficial guidance on that will probably be helpful in the long run.

EbonWarlock
EbonWarlock's picture

Will have to give this some playtesting but I'm thinking that if it isn't a Risk and the characters want to end up with a more 'impressive' result then maybe spending a Hero Point for some additinal story details? 

Wolfflin Huyghen
Wolfflin Huyghen's picture

4. Crafting objects?

To all these that ussing "it depend on the object", here you have a quick list. It's not too easy wink

  • ladder
  • plow
  • jacket
  • coins
  • wagon
  • vase of glass
  • rope
  • torch
  • ship rudder
  • sails (repair)
  • horseshoe

@Salamanca "Make the players think about how they are doing things to gain that extra die for flair."

You know my opinion about that. After many playtestings, it's like the "McGiver syndrome": triying to use his "cheats" for everything, even for simple things. If it's not really puntual and dramatic (2-3 times per session) it feels like a bad joke rewarding being a munchkin.

PS: Schoolarship it's becoming the most OP of the skills...

 

BluSponge
BluSponge's picture

Ok, I'm confused.  What exactly prevents the hero from making a horseshoe?  I mean, assuming it fits one of his backgrounds, and he has access to a forge and materials, and the time to spare, why shouldn't he be able to make one?  No roll necessary.  "You spend a day over a blazing forge and produce four horseshoes."

Forget about skills for a moment.  Let's go waaaaaaay back to AD&D and secondary skills, where it was assumed the PC came from "somewhere" before he took up a life of adventure. Armorer, Bowyer, Famer, etc.  These weren't proper skills.  They didn't have a rank.  And it was left to the DM's discretion as to how they worked in his or her campaign.  But at least they were expected to convey some knowledge.  A blacksmith could make a horseshoe, or maybe repair armor and weapons.  Why in the world would you use Scholarship for any of these?  Théah may not be 17th Century Earth, but the idea of your typical Eisen going to primary school to learn to make a rope is kinda silly.

So lets ignore the Master Crafter background for right now, because a player shouldn't need A background to make things.  I'm going to use your list.  I would say any of the listed backgrounds would might be able to craft these items.  I'm going to assume some liberties given the cinematic swashbuckling genre.

  • ladder: farmkid, engineer, explorer, quartermaster, pirate, sailor
  • plow: engineer, farmkid, explorer, quartermaster, hunter
  • jacket: Jenny, Performer, Servant, spy, solider, explorer, hunter, priest
  • coins: You need a mint and fire.  If you have those, any of us can make coins.
  • wagon: engineer, farmkid, quartermaster
  • vase of glass: A quality one?  Ok, you got me.  Master craftsman.  Here I think materials and time are what really matter.
  • rope: farmkid, hunter, explorer, pirate, quartermaster, sailor, mercenary, ship captain
  • torch: seriously?  It's wood and pitch.
  • ship rudder: Explorer, Pirate, Naval Officer, Quartermaster, sailor, ship captain, maybe even a farmkid depending on where he grew up.
  • sails (repair): Explorer, Pirate, Naval Officer, Quartermaster, sailor, ship captain
  • horseshoe: Farmkid, cavalry, hunter, explorer, mercenary

But if it really is necessary to your game, you could just add a Craftsmanship skill to go along with scholarship and be done with it.

Swashbuckling derring do doesn't really lend itself to crafting big ticket items.

Wolfflin Huyghen
Wolfflin Huyghen's picture

You know that you didn't reply my question, no? I was only wollowing the qz and you did'nt mention skills. The thing was solve it with skills wink

Sometimes that "silly" ites can be really important for the campaing. In two words: horseshoes + shides

"the idea of your typical Eisen going to primary school to learn to make a rope is kinda silly". Even my dad went to a sailor school until he was 18. And that was one of the things that they learned.

"torch: seriously?  It's wood and pitch." Try... devil

I like your solution of use the backgrounds. Really. It's what I did in the mega campaing that we are playing. But nobody likes it.

The conclussion it's something like ""If it don't appear in the book, it's not heroic/Swashbuckling"". Mmmm... I really disagree. Think about crafters in european folk tales...

BluSponge
BluSponge's picture

You know that you didn't reply my question, no? I was only wollowing the qz and you did'nt mention skills. The thing was solve it with skills wink

But why would I do that?  Why is a hammer the best tool for the job?  The premise is flawed.

Sometimes that "silly" ites can be really important for the campaing. In two words: horseshoes + shides

I don't believe I said crafting any of these items was "silly" in and of itself.  I did say the idea of characters going to schools to learn these trades was.  Most of these items would be made by either craftsmen who served as apprentices, farmhands who learned the trade from their parents, or out of necessity (why does a sailor know how to sow? Because who else is going to mend his uniform.).  Apprenticeships is where most of these crafts would be learned on Théah...even in Castille.

"the idea of your typical Eisen going to primary school to learn to make a rope is kinda silly". Even my dad went to a sailor school until he was 18. And that was one of the things that they learned.

But not in the 17th century.  Its an apples and oranges comparison.  Now, if your father has been around since the 17th century, I'm impressed by a lot more than what school he atteneded.  ;)  But see, a sailor should be able to make a rope.  No skill roll required, so long as he has time and materials.  Making a rope out of jungle vines?  That might be a Risk.

"torch: seriously?  It's wood and pitch." Try... devil

Alas, I have no pitch.

I like your solution of use the backgrounds. Really. It's what I did in the mega campaing that we are playing. But nobody likes it.

Why not?  Plus, like I said, adding a Craftsman skill to the mix is pretty easy.  

The conclussion it's something like ""If it don't appear in the book, it's not heroic/Swashbuckling"". Mmmm... I really disagree. Think about crafters in european folk tales...

That's not what I said.  I said I was taking some liberties for the sake of the genre.  If Captain Blood or the Dread Pirate Roberts was marooned on an island, we'd really be surprised at all the trades they'd learned over the years.  So a cavalry officer would know how to forge a horseshoe.  Realistic?  Maybe not.  But definitely in keeping with the genre.

And as for horseshoes and the sidhe, the iron matters more than the form.  People hung iron scissors over cribs to keep the faeries from making off with their children and leavig changelings behind.  So a crude horseshoe that isn't fit for man or beast will do just fine.

Salamanca
Salamanca's picture
Why are you checking for making any of these? Outside of possibly the ship repairs, none of that is something that is dramatically important. And if they are trying to fix a rudder or sail in the middle of a ship battle, you could just as easily default to athletics and resolve as you could warfare and wits ( for avoiding the moving parts or knowing what you need to get through the fight them fix it right later)
Salamanca
Salamanca's picture
I'm not saying the skills to do those things are not important. I am saying those skills are not something that needs a resolution test in this system. If the character has a reasonable explanation in their backstory and time there is no reason to deny their ability to craft an object. The whole point of the system is that "you succeed unless you choose to fail". IF something is suddenly dramatic about getting the job done, you pick the skill that most fits the aspect of the problem they are facing. (It may be convince or Tempt to work a masterpiece that impresses the king, it may be athletics or brawling to fix the sails during a battle). So the answer is MAKE THE WHOLE THING SITUATIONAL.
Patrick McCoy
Patrick McCoy's picture
4. There is a background called Crafter and two advantages for crafting. It seems they left out crafting skill because it wants the players to use these mechanics. Not to mention couldn't you use the skill knowledge: insert crafting here?
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