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Radagast el Pardo
Radagast el Pardo's picture
Strange traductions

I hav a question that doesn't let me sleep since I started playing 7th Sea: why "Los Vagos"? "Vago", in spanish, means "lazy". The spanish version of the game names the society as "Los Vagabundos" ("the wanderers", although I think the correct meaning is "the beggars"). I think it makes more sense.

I understand "die kreuzritter" ("the crusaders"), the "eisenfürsten" ("iron princes") and so. Why, then, that strange spanish word for a mixture of V-of-Vendetta, the Zorro and the guerrilla against the napoleonic invasion?

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Bradley
Bradley's picture
My guess, lack of knowledge of the Spanish language and just choosing something that sounded cool and vaguely Spanish to English speakers. This new edition will likely have better named things thanks to being able to check on the internet and ask speakers of certain languages for suggestions.
Radagast el Pardo
Radagast el Pardo's picture

I hope you are right, but I think we, the spaniards, are going to live with El Vago... sad

Tilly Bomas
Tilly Bomas's picture

Also, from what I understand, it was the name given by their enemies that they decided to use.  

Bradley
Bradley's picture
If that is true, then it adds a nice explanation for the insulting name. And is a common trope in our world's history. The one that comes immediately to mind is the reason the animal of the democratic party in the US is a donkey was an insult to Jefferson, I think. I could be wrong about the person, but that was basically the reason and there are tons of other examples.
Alfredo Tarancón
Alfredo Tarancón's picture

Back then was a mistake mostly related to the reasons stated here. In this new edition they are keeping the name (now it's kind of a Brand, would be silly to discard it) but it's gonna be explained as Bradley says, something we have seen on a picture JW shared in facebook a few weeks back. It's a new explanation to try to give a justification to the name inside the world. 

Personally I've always found it funny and I'm glad they're keeping it (And have used the name for the G+ spanish community I created a few days back, also in homage to the original Mailing list of the game back in the old days)

Radagast el Pardo
Radagast el Pardo's picture

Maybe it was an insult given by his enemies... but it has no sense. "Lazy"? Really? His first appearance was everything but lazy. I can understand "beggar", for example, like in "ese enmascarado no es más que un pordiosero, un mendigo vagabundo".

Of course the new edition keeps the name. It must keep it. As Alfredo says, it's a brand. Like "sorte strega", although it has no sense in italian (the correct name should be "strega della sorte"). All I wanted was to understand why that name. I don't find that name funny, but a little insulting (like to divide the country in "ranchos" instead in "provincias". Spain is not Mexico).

Well, maybe, as Bradley says above, it's nothing more that lack of knowledge.

Tilly Bomas
Tilly Bomas's picture

2 things against that

 

1) Castile is not Spain, and since their was no Mexico, they were using elements for both to form it.  Same with Vodacce not being Italy.  So the nameing conventions don't NEED to be perfect.  

2) Also, it is probably more propaganda then anything.  After all, what makes troops better at fighting.  
"Their is this man in a mask, that is highly energetic, can vanish at will, and is good with a sword and will probably kill you long before you see him"
or
"Some Castillian is trapsing around in a Vodacee mascarade mask.  This lazy man thinks this will scare us, just because he is wearing a mascarade mask.  Let us show Los Vagos the err of his ways."

 

If the name did come from enemies, then yes.. it is SUPPOSED to be insulting.  

Morgan Wolfe
Morgan Wolfe's picture

Also, remember that propaganda doesn't need to (and often doesn't) make sense. Consider that you'll hear the same people complaining about "lazy others" while also complaining that "those others are here to take our jobs."

Morgan Wolfe
aka Capt. Doña Sir Kestrel of Avalon http://silver-gateway.com/7sea/

Radagast el Pardo
Radagast el Pardo's picture

You don't understand me: I mean "Los Vagos" it's a bit insulting for spanish-speakers. As to divide Castille in "ranchos", I think, is insulting for mexican people

And, ok, Théah is not Europe and naming conventions don't need to be perfect, but I think the Avalon and Eisen (or even Vendel) settings, as far as I know, are better care than i.e. castillian or vodaccian. Of course that the game is not a recreation of seventeenth century Europe (luckily it's not so, haha. The events of Montaigne are more typical of late XVIII or early XIX, Avalon is more arthurian than anything and the vikings disappeared around the year 1100), but for example Avalon doesn't seem Australia or the East-Coast Colonies of North America. Why Castille (which, incidentally, it's the name of the largest region of Spain) is so like Mexico?

Maybe the problem is that there is a topic in Spain (confirmed, haha) that says northamericans think Spain is somewhere south of Mexico (really??), we wear sombreros (yes... suuuure), the country is a desert plenty of cactus or a strange tropical paradise (Spain is the european country most diverse climatically), all of us love bullfighting (although there are regions where it's forbidden), everybody dance flamenco (only in Andalucía, a southern region, and only for the gypsies), our typical meal is paella (it's true in Valencia, a region of the east coast) and we are very religious (less than 15% of spaniards go to church at least once a week. In comparison, around 60% of northamerican christian people claim to be members of a church congregation). To understand this, please, watch "Knight and Day" (Tom Cruise and Cameron Diaz), a hodgepodge of "spanish" culture. That film is only one of many examples.

Morgan Wolfe
Morgan Wolfe's picture

I think it's not so much "why so much Mexico" as "why so much Alta California". They wanted to get Zorro in there but didn't have a New World, so they rolled Spanish-ruled California into Spain itself.

It'll be interesting to see what they do with those elements now that there'll be a not-Mexico and not-California to work with.

But yeah, rolling together everyone in a country as large and diverse as Spain (which for those who don't know wasn't one nation until 1479, 1516, or 1715, depending on how you count it) is a lot like making blanket comments about North Americans, because people in Canada are the same as people from Washington / California / Florida / Maine / Nebraska. ;-) ;-) ;-)

Morgan Wolfe
aka Capt. Doña Sir Kestrel of Avalon http://silver-gateway.com/7sea/

Radagast el Pardo
Radagast el Pardo's picture

Oh, do you think it's because of Zorro? Ha, I didn't realized!!! I think you are right. If you want a Zorro, you need California (I thought Zorro was set in California, yes, but as part of the spanish Viceroyalty of Mexico, so excuse my mistake), so Castille must be a bastardized mix of Spain and Mexico (or California).

The problem with generalizations is that... they are a problem, hahaha. USA is a very very large country and is not Mexico or Canada (the other two nations of North America). Besides, USA alone is as diverse as the whole Europe.

Morgan Wolfe
Morgan Wolfe's picture

I think we're on the same page :-). I said Alta California and Spanish-ruled California, you said the Spanish Viceroyalty of Mexico, but both seem to apply to Don Diego's alter ego.

Apparently, the era of the Fox has changed, being the Mexican era in the original pulps but also having been during Spanish rule in some adaptations.

So, we're both right? ;-)

Morgan Wolfe
aka Capt. Doña Sir Kestrel of Avalon http://silver-gateway.com/7sea/

Silver Rapier
Silver Rapier's picture

Many of the Montaigne names were pretty weird too. Like Rois-et-Reines du Rogné. It translates roughly to 'kings and queens of the trimmed'. The 'du' in those names should be 'de' in most cases, and what comes after 'de' should be the name of a place.

Doug Silvey
Doug Silvey's picture

At least it isn't L5R where they had a family named after Shut-Ins/Nerds (Otaku) and Seppun Baka (Idiot).

Don Alfonso Sán...
Don Alfonso Sánchez de Ilurdoz's picture

Well, in L5R there is the Kakita family wich can be transalted to spanish (again) as "little shit"

So I do not think that Los Vagos is so bad after all...

Radagast el Pardo
Radagast el Pardo's picture

The best swordsman and duelist of L5R: Kakita Toshimoko... so "Little-shit Cough-and-snot". You are right, "Los Vagos" isn't so bad. laugh
 

Heng benjamin
Heng benjamin's picture
I'm pretty sure I've read "los vagabundos" in one of the KS update. So maybe they changed the name.
Radagast el Pardo
Radagast el Pardo's picture

Do you remember where?

Jordi Estefa
Jordi Estefa's picture

From the Real Academia Española:
vago2, ga.
Del lat. vagus.
1. adj. Que anda de una parte a otra, sin detenerse en ningún lugar.
(adj. That walks from one location to another, without stoping anywhere)

“El Vago” can be used in Spanish with the meaning of “The wandering one” (although is definitely more used when refering to objects, not people. Like "The loose one"). The most used definition is the one meaning “The lazy one”. 

vago1, ga.
Del lat. vacuus 'desocupado'.
1. adj. Holgazán, perezoso, poco trabajador.
(adj. Idle, slothful, little laborious)

Despite not being entirely wrong, to play in Spanish using “El Vago” just sounds awful. Like a parody. That must have been the reason that was translated as “El Vagabundo”.

vagabundo, da
Del lat. vagabundus.
1. adj. Que anda errante y carece de domicilio fijo y de medio regular de vida.
(adj. That walks wandering and lacks a permanent residence and a regular way of life)

I just pretend the Theahn Castilian is that much different to the real world Castilian.

Radagast el Pardo
Radagast el Pardo's picture

So your point is that the society name comes from "vago" as "aquél que vaga de un lado a otro" and not as "aquél que no da un palo al agua", isn't it? Ok, it's a good explanation... but it still sounds very awful, hehehe.

Anyway, the first entry of the RAE is "vago" as "lazy one". The meaning "wanderer" is the second definition. Going further, "vagus", in classical latin, was use only for objects (as "stella vaga", wandering star), although it had other meanings ("free", for example, or "vague"). The suffix "-bundus" was for the construction of adjectives from verbs, and meant "faculty of". So "vagabundus" is "the object that wander". For persons, the verb was "erro, -as, errare". But, when spanish evolved from latin, the sound /k/ in "vacuus" became /g/, as in "vagus"... so at the end they became the same word "vago". Sorry for the drag, hehe.

Jordi Estefa
Jordi Estefa's picture

Yes. Vago as "que vaga", not as "que vaguea". But I agree with you that it does not sound good in Spanish. It helps to understand where the mistake is coming from, though.

"El Vagabundo" perhaps doesn't sound that much better either... as pointed out before, vagabundo makes you think in "bum" or "tramp" or "homeless". Probably "El Errante" (The Errant One) would be more adequate, but then we'd miss the "V" from "Vendetta", so... the best of the bad (?).

 

 

Amelia Montero
Amelia Montero's picture

OMG How many spaniards are here? 

I think the same as Radagast (it's an odd mix, we need to polish some things, Vagabundo is better than Vago) but at least Castilla's book was made with more love than Ussura... Really, you read the History of Ussura and look like is made for some enemy of the country.

Don Alfonso Sán...
Don Alfonso Sánchez de Ilurdoz's picture

How many? Not enough!

For Theus, For Castille, For the King!

 

And yes, it´s clear that the Castilla´s book was done with lots of love. We evan had DiCaprio as King!

Radagast el Pardo
Radagast el Pardo's picture

Hahaha, you are right! ¡Sandoval y cierra, Castilla!

But I prefer that Jovovich Pösen...

Amelia Montero
Amelia Montero's picture

We are never enough, but brave as devil!

Morgan Wolfe
Morgan Wolfe's picture

My main PC, whose standard I use as my userpic, was an Avalon Traditionalist who considered Castille her second home. Hence my old sig: Capt. Doña Dame Kestrel of Avalon

Morgan Wolfe
aka Capt. Doña Sir Kestrel of Avalon http://silver-gateway.com/7sea/

Amelia Montero
Amelia Montero's picture

We have also Mulder XD

Radagast el Pardo
Radagast el Pardo's picture

It's true. Verdugo looks like Mulder!

Don Alfonso Sán...
Don Alfonso Sánchez de Ilurdoz's picture

My old GM always said that he looks like Richard Gere...

Kevin Krupp
Kevin Krupp's picture
Jordi Estefa
Jordi Estefa's picture

Ahah! This is so great!!

"Some outside Castille refer to the hero as "El Vago", which is an incorrect translation"

XD Just made my day!

Seventh Sea
Seventh Sea's picture

Yes, Los Vagabundos (here is the screenshot). Thanks, Kevin Krupp.

 

Tilly Bomas
Tilly Bomas's picture

This also hints on Magical Items/Artifacts.....

Radagast el Pardo
Radagast el Pardo's picture

Ohhh, yeah!!

Salamanca
Salamanca's picture

How many Castillians?  Really?  if one stands, it is enough to handle whatever we face. 

 

It will take me a long time to remember to use the long name.  as for the 5 masks thing... I will be polite and wait to see just what that entails.

 

 

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